Tuesday, October 13, 2009

Beware of inaccurate BD captures

5:50 PM / Blu-ray / Comments25 Comments

Blu-ray
Blu-ray

The other day, I came across captures of the recent BD release of Drag Me to Hell on a DVD and BD review and image comparison site. (There are only a few sites that actually post direct full resolution captures, and fewer still have actually covered this disc, so you probably won't need to work too hard to figure out which one it is.) My first reaction was "That doesn't look right at all," followed almost immediately by "Oh good grief, who would put out such a crummy-looking disc?" The whole thing looked blocky in the extreme, as if it had been upconverted from a lower resolution using a crude pixel resize technique.

That in itself is not entirely unheard of. Recently, Paramount released Braveheart on BD with what was generally a stunning and revelatory image. However, the first twenty-two minutes suffered from some semi-noticeable stair-stepping on vertical edges, seemingly stemming from the image source having a vertical resolution of less than 1080 pixels. (The rest of the film was unaffected.) Similarly, Sunshine Cleaning from Anchor Bay and The Orphanage from New Line suffer from a milder form of this issue, only in the horizontal domain. All well and good, but these are small fry compared to the problems I was seeing in the screen captures of Drag Me to Hell.

Then I remembered: my own copy of Drag Me to Hell arrived last Friday. (My "to watch" pile is so big at the moment that I somewhat shamefacedly admit to occasionally forgetting what films it contains.) I popped it in...

And was rewarded by an image that is pretty close to flawless in my eyes. No blockiness in sight, no sirree Bob.

My capture (click to enlarge):

Drag Me to Hell screen capture comparison

Other site's capture (click to enlarge):

Drag Me to Hell screen capture comparison

Side by side comparison (cropped):

Drag Me to Hell screen capture comparison

Well, that's that, then. I guess it rules the site in question out as a reliable source for BD screen captures in the future, particularly given that it has already been embroiled in no small amount of controversy regarding the reliability of its standard definition DVD captures. It's a shame, because like I said before there are only a few sites out there posting full resolution BD captures. However, far more troubling than writing off one of these few sites is the knowledge that one of them is posting misleading and inaccurate images. (I particularly take exception to the fact that the site describes these images as "full 1920x1080 resolution".) If I was responsible for the the creation of their the BD encode of Drag Me to Hell or the master from which it is derived, I'd be incredibly pissed off.

Updated Thursday, October 15, 2009 at 03:21 PM: The site in question has now admitted its error and replaced the earlier captures with accurate ones. However, I note that other similarly affected reviews have not been revised accordingly.

 
25 Comments

1. Eric Steinberg said:

Is it dvd beaver?

(Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 at 6:06 PM)

2. LGans316 said:

Thanks Whiggles. This is the first time I am seeing such a difference between an incorrect pix Vs. a correct one.

(Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 at 6:06 PM)

3. Author Profile Page Michael said:

Eric:

Oh, I couldn't possibly deny or confirm that. What I will say is that it's not Hundland.org, CinemaSquid, Blu-ray.com, DVD Talk or any of the various AVS Forum posters. Are there any other sites/individuals out there doing full resolution captures?


LGans316:

It's the first time I've seen anything like this too.

(Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 at 6:09 PM)

4. Johan said:

How hard can it be? How many different things is there to keep track on? More important maybe, how can one not notice it?

(Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 at 6:34 PM)

5. Kram Sacul said:

The "Beaver" capture is more compressed but I don't think it's that. Something got screwed up along the way.

Unfortunately this will probably fuel the "screencaps are lies/Gladiator looks fine" crowd. Fortunately no one will care.

(Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 at 6:56 PM)

6. FoxyMulder said:

This reminds me that i have been updating the Film Reference and Analysis thread with screenshot links for those that want to see what the films on the lists look like and Hundland.org and Cinema Squid have given permission to use their screenshots.

I was wondering if it would be possible to use screenshots from your site also. If bandwidth is an issue for you then may i borrow some of the pics and upload to my site and post in the thread ?

Lastly can you PM me on the AVS forum site and let me know which site is posting lousy screenshots so i can avoid them in future and i promise my lips will stay sealed....Thanks.

(Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 at 10:47 PM)

7. FoxyMulder said:

Actually by right clicking and opening properties i can tell which site is doing the screencaps all wrong. No surprise to me given the controversy over Contact and the color timing of the screencaps on that site.

(Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 at 10:51 PM)

8. Erik said:

Very odd as I believe this site uses the same method of capturing as "us." Cinema Squid has a special one that makes my head spin, but the results are nice (you don't need PNGs, though, if you're reading this mate).

Now, seeing these next to each other "site X" is clearly using something else, the colors are quite different with a definite red push [on the non-Whimsy shot]. Maybe a change for the worse, or the tool used all along.

Thanks for posting, interesting...

(Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 at 11:35 PM)

9. Kram Sacul said:

//Are there any other sites/individuals out there doing full resolution captures?


http://www.caps-a-holic.com

Excellent site for DVD and HD capture comparisons.

(Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 at 12:46 AM)

10. Paku said:

The red push is probably due to conversion to RGB using the wrong colourspace (BT.601 instead of BT.709) and isn't uncommon when it comes to screenshots (in the same way you occasionally come across shots that haven't been expanded to PC levels, although that might not be technically wrong it'll look washed-out on a PC monitor.)

The stair-stepping is a mystery to me though. I can't even think of a way to reproduce it when taking screenshots, apart from outright manipulation after the fact. Maybe they're not direct from the disc, instead using a capture card or similar? (I notice there are subtitles in one of the shots.)

'That site' also has a review for How I Met Your Mother Season 4 by the same reviewer (there are at least two of them), and guess what's wrong with those shots...

(Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 at 1:11 AM)

11. Erik said:

The subs are burnt in for some of the non-English dialogue in the film.

As I rushed through this post I at first thought that only *one* shot was affected, but now it's obvious that it's the whole batch, and indeed the other disc you pointed out.

Had it only been one frame, it could have been this problem:

http://www.hundland.org/hd/e/elephantman1_bad.jpg
(My capturing tool landed on a "bad I-frame" for some reason)

http://www.hundland.org/hd/e/elephantman1.jpg
(But one click and it was gone)

No idea what causes this on every single shot over "there"... any takers?

(Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 at 1:28 AM)

To this day it's a mystery to me how they do what they do to screen captures. They should really document the capture process they use.

Good luck in getting them to admit the problem, though!

(Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 at 1:48 AM)

13. Christopher D. Jacobson said:

"Are there any other sites/individuals out there doing full resolution captures?"

caps-a-holic.com?

(Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 at 6:14 AM)

14. Author Profile Page Michael said:

Lots of mentions of Caps-a-holic.com here. I must admit I didn't know about them, but have now bookmarked them and will be checking their site for updates regularly. Needless to say, the Drag Me to Hell capture I posted isn't theirs.


Foxy:

By all means link to my captures on AVS. As far as bandwidth goes, I'd appreciate it if you linked to the original post rather than the individual images. That should stop me from getting overloaded as it means people can click on the thumbnails that interest them rather than ending up loading a bunch of full size images they might not want.

(Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 at 7:07 AM)

15. Christian said:

"Are there any other sites/individuals out there doing full resolution captures?"

Yes, I offer full resolution captures on my site: http://www.dvduell.de/screenshots-und-vergleiche/

When I made my first screenshots from Blu-ray I had the same problem with blocky captures because of wrong software choices and settings ... but I never published any of them. Now I'm doing them with Media Player Classic, ffdshow and different codecs.

Some sites (The one you borrowed the screenshot from, too.) do not use the right YCbCr specification during the RGB conversion. They use ITU-R BT.601 but that's the color matrix for DVD. The right one for Blu-ray is ITU-R BT.709. As you can see there's a difference in color between your screenshot and the one from "the other site".

(Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 at 12:34 PM)

16. Jojos said:

"Are there any other sites/individuals out there doing full resolution captures?"

You can check these two :

- http://www.highdefdiscnews.com (PNG)
- http://blu-news.com (heavily compressed JPEG)

(Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 at 3:40 PM)

17. Author Profile Page Michael said:

Thanks for all the links, folks - more sites to add to my list. :)

(Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 at 10:06 PM)

I see the site in question has admitted to the error - interesting that they won't do the same for DVD. Though I imagine that's because they'd have a huge back catalog of screen captures to re-take.

(Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 at 10:08 PM)

It's pretty easy to make the BT.601 color matrix mistake, especially since this is the default in ffmpeg's swscale YUV->RGB converter and it not so obvious how to manually select BT.709 there. Any open-source player that does its RGB conversion through swscale (ex. mplayer) is likely to have it wrong.

I've been going back through and redoing many of my own captures made from mplayer because of this. A fun and exciting process.

(Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 at 11:08 PM)

20. Author Profile Page Michael said:

Yes, a number of my older captures have the incorrect colour matrix issue too. If memory serves me correctly, someone pointed it out to me on the AVS Forum when the fiasco surrounding Lions Gate's MPEG-2 reissue of The Descent first broke and we were comparing screengrabs.

(Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 at 11:21 PM)

21. FoxyMulder said:

Thats a good site Christian. Handy for seeing European releases and i'll bookmark it.

(Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 at 8:58 AM)

22. Greg said:

Michael,

Any idea how the the new Audition Blu looks? Hopefully not purple (like the Beaver caps would have us believe).

(Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 at 8:23 PM)

23. Author Profile Page Michael said:

Greg:

Haven't seen it for myself, but I must admit the screencaps did make me wary of buying it, at least at full price. It wasn't the pink/purple tint that bothered so much as the general lack of detail.

(Posted on Thursday, October 15, 2009 at 8:25 PM)

24. AlexBC said:

I'm late to the party here, but I've commented on this issue a couple times on AVS forum, but it went mostly ignored.

Basically all DVDbeavers caps are inacurate as well as the caps for most reviews on Blu-ray.com (Martin Liebman ones being the exception).

So my suggestion for us enthusiasts is to beware of those two websites.

(Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 at 4:11 AM)

25. Author Profile Page Michael said:

Alex:

By "inaccurate", are you referring to the incorrect colour matrix? I consider that a problem, but not a deal-breaker, because at least you are still able to get an idea of how the image looks overall. However, captures that are labelled as full resolution but in fact are not, such as the initial Drag Me to Hell shots, are to my mind completely inexcusable.

(Posted on Friday, October 16, 2009 at 2:23 PM)

 
To combat spam, commenting is automatically disabled on entries older than 30 days.

Did a comment you tried to post accidentally get eaten by the spam filter? It happens from time to time. I get upwards of 200 spam comments every day and unfortunately don't have the time to weed through all of them in case something genuine ended up there by mistake. If one of your posts gets incorrectly flagged as spam, email me at whiggles[at]ntlworld[dot]com and I'll do my best to retrieve it.