Tuesday, October 4, 2011

BD impressions: Torso

11:09 PM / BD Impressions / Comments63 Comments

BD Impressions
Blu-ray

The film: I've always thought TORSO was the missing link between the giallo and the later US slasher movie movement, far more so than the usually cited BAY OF BLOOD. (Mikel J. Koven makes a similar argument in his book LA DOLCE MORTE, but I noticed the connection first, dagnabbit! :D) It's unusual among gialli in that it focuses on an all-girl group of college students (most gialli tend to be about mixed sex groups of adults in their late 20s or 30s) and, while it features a whodunit of sorts, it's half-hearted to the point of not mattering. It's therefore worth seeing for its status as a sort of bridge between two distinct filmic movements, and for the superb final 25 minutes - an almost dialogue-free game of cat and mouse in which the Final Girl (told you it was reminiscent of US slashers) is trapped inside an isolated country villa with the killer, who doesn't realise there's someone still alive in the house.

It's a shame the rest of the film doesn't live up to the quality of that final act. I've never had as much time for Sergio Martino as some giallo fans, but I'll concede that he did do some very nice work with the giallo/ROSEMARY'S BABY rip-off hybrid ALL THE COLOURS OF THE DARK. Quite a few people consider TORSO his best effort, and I think there's an argument to be made that the aforementioned climax is the best thing he's ever directed, but the rest of the film is a fairly bland plod through the usual clichés, with a grubbier, less refined visual style than his earlier gialli. Suzy Kendall (perhaps best known as Tony Musante's love interest in the vastly superior THE BIRD WITH THE CRYSTAL PLUMAGE) does reasonably well as the fairly bland heroine, and the late Tina Aumont looks resplendent (it's those big smoky eyes that do it for me), but beyond that there's not a massive amount to recommend. You'll likely guess the killer's identity in his first scene, despite the numerous red herrings Martino and co-writer (and giallo legend) Ernesto Gastaldi throw our way. It ultmately all just feels a bit tired, only truly coming alive for that outstanding third act. 5/10

Image quality: The good news: it looks much, much better than THE CAT O' NINE TAILS... though that really wouldn't be difficult.

The bad news: it's derived from yet another seriously compromised CRT-based telecine from Italian post house LVR.

One of the claims most frequently repeated by the anti-screenshot contingent is that screenshots don't accurately represent viewing the film in motion, and there is a degree of truth in this, although it has been twisted and blown out of proportion by certain individuals who don't seem to properly understand how the process works. Yes, it's true that you can come across captures that feature additional processing and are therefore unrepresentative of the disc (such as those found on a certain prolific image comparison site that has yet to amend its practices despite having been notified about the problem several times) but for the most part the captures the various review sites and individual users upload are accurate reproductions of individual frames on the discs in question. However, while you can tell a lot about a disc's look from an individual capture in terms of colour, brightness and overall detail, it's much harder to discern the overall texture of the movie, particularly those shot on film, given that the entire image is made up of individual grain particles that change on a per-frame basis.

Why is all this relevant? Because, when I came across captures of this disc in the review at Rock! Shock! Pop! I was pleasantly surprised. The same machine noise that afflicts all LVR's CRT jobs (even the better ones, like THE BIRD WITH THE CRYSTAL PLUMAGE and DEEP RED) seemed to be present and correct, and a number of shots had that familiar smeary look, but others looked quite impressive and film-like. I bought the disc primarily on the strength of those captures, only to be a little let down when I saw it in motion.

Don't misunderstand me: there's nothing wrong with Rock! Shock! Pop!'s captures. They're an accurate representation of what's on the disc. The trouble is, what they don't reveal is that a heavy pass of noise reduction has rendered the grain that's visible in the captures largely static when played back. I've no idea at what point this happened (the CAT O' NINE TAILS debacle suggests that, at least on some titles, LVR are actually performing DNR at the telecine stage) or whether the responsibility lies with LVR or Blue Underground, but either way the result is not particularly filmic, and introduces some nasty artefacting in certain scenes: the forest murder, shot day-for-night (and correctly tinted here, unlike on the German X-Rated Kult DVD release), is a particularly strong offender. Close-up shots with little movement in them generally fare quite well, with a decent amount of genuine detail coming through, but movement and especially wider shots reveal a lack of fine detail and a generally mushy appearance that I don't think can be blamed on the original photography.

I suppose on the whole it's a fairly acceptable presentation of materials that likely didn't look too stunning to begin with, but it's a problematic release all the same. Now that we've identified the company responsible for these transfers (and the less than state-of-the-art equipment they're using), we at least have something approaching an explanation for why so many of these titles have such a weird look. Perhaps, just perhaps, now's the time to admit that there's a problem and take steps to correct it. 6/10

Note: The BD contains both an export version and a slightly longer Italian cut of the film, presented as two separate encodes without using seamless branching. Barring the first image, the captures below are all derived from the Italian cut. There's no appreciable difference in image quality between the two versions, both of which are derived from the same scan.

Torso
label: Blue Underground; disc country: USA; region code: ABC;
codec: AVC; aspect ratio: 1.66:1

Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso Torso

 
63 Comments

1. Kentai said:

Can't argue a word of this one, Michael. The final third is really amazing stuff, and the rest - while engaging enough to keep me interested - simply doesn't stack up in comparison. I'll admit that I think Martino's MOUNTAIN OF THE CANNIBAL GOD is a more amusing film, though it actually suffers from a weak first act as well now that I think of it.

What really vexes me is that BU/LVR went out of their way to include the "Carnal Violence" export cut, and then overlaid a brand new (TORSO) title on the print anyway! They even simulated the print's gate-weave to try and make it look more organic... why bother? It's a shame they didn't include that scummy vintage print they took the US titles from in its entirety, now that would have been a fun alternate print to watch!

The X-Rated release also lacks English subtitles during the bits that are only presented in Italian, on top of not having the color timing right on a lengthy sequence and replacing the title with an absolutely ghastly video generated one. It's really a pretty frustrating release, but at least it wasn't missing footage, which is more than I can say for the old Anchor Bay release. I think the AB release "created" another closure of the camera shutter to slide in their original title, but I've never seen it in motion, so I'm not positive.

(Posted on Wednesday, October 5, 2011 at 12:16 AM)

2. Brian said:

The forest scene really stood out from the rest of Torso. It reminded me of Anchor Bay's Evil Dead 2 or Universal's Tremors in how smeary it was. Overall, I thought Torso looked good, but the noise was very noticeable.

(Posted on Wednesday, October 5, 2011 at 1:13 AM)

3. Phil Quail said:

My copy arrived today, haven't looked at it yet.

I take consolation in the fact that it must be an improvement on my Anchor Bay and Alan Young Pictures DVDs.

(Posted on Wednesday, October 5, 2011 at 1:23 AM)

4. Sergio said:

Does LVR have a monopoly on creating these telecines? Can another company be used that will do a more competent job? If we protest in mass, will anyone listen?

(Posted on Wednesday, October 5, 2011 at 3:13 AM)

5. Kentai said:

I'm certain LVR treats their materials with care, and have no doubt that Mr. Vittori is a stand up guy who's doing his best to give customers what they ask for - which is why it always pains me to have to say "Seriously LVR, you guys really suck".

Somebody is actually getting a paycheck to make these middling and sometimes downright awful transfers, and they either honestly don't know what they're doing wrong, or they simply don't care. The DVNR on display might be a misguided attempt to ease the burden of their aging, and no doubt very expensive Telecine hardware. "What's that? You're hearing complaints about video noise? We can fix that!" You fix one problem with another, and in the end it gets us pretty much nowhere.

One need only look towards that disastrous first release from Arrow Video of THE BEYOND to see that, more often than not, nobody seems to have a clue what they're doing with these films. (And no, I don't know for sure if LVR did the transfer for The Beyond or not. I'd be surprised if they didn't, though...)

I'm sure it's possible for BU to take their business to somewhere like Technicolor or CineCitta, but they can't be any cheaper. I can't imagine TORSO is going to light up the sales chart, so I'm sure every outdated Lira counts. It's also entirely possible that some of these film companies are so confident in LVR that they'll refuse to send the negative elsewhere, at which point you either get what they send you or you turn the license down.

(Posted on Wednesday, October 5, 2011 at 4:42 AM)

6. Christopher D. Jacobson said:

Sounds like a bit of a bummer, but doesn't look like a terrible transfer. Certainly could be loads better, but I find it acceptable.

I've never seen the film and have considered biting the lure. Fifteen bucks is a nice price.

caps-a-holic have done an image comparison with the DVD:

http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?cID=598#auswahl

(Posted on Wednesday, October 5, 2011 at 6:52 AM)

7. Lyris said:

Friends against CRT!
Don't let this happen to your film!

(Posted on Wednesday, October 5, 2011 at 9:33 PM)

8. Phil Quail said:

Speaking of Italian transfers, DVD Beaver have added the Arrow CAT O'NINE TAILS to their comparison. Looks much like the BU, to my inexpert eye:

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDReviews50/cat_o_nine_tales.htm

(Posted on Thursday, October 6, 2011 at 5:15 PM)

9. FoxyMulder said:

I only looked at three of the captures but the Arrow release seems to have some degraining of the noisy grain structure and slightly less saturation in the colours.

(Posted on Thursday, October 6, 2011 at 7:52 PM)

10. Kentai said:

I doubt we're seeing a literal attempt at degraining - more likely than not, the BU transfer's bitrate of 33 Mb/s is just mopping the floor with Arrow's 22 Mb/s.

(Posted on Thursday, October 6, 2011 at 10:34 PM)

11. FoxyMulder said:

Hard to tell from just a few screencaps, its possible with some of the scenes but the last three or so caps look like degraining rather than a bitrate starvation issue.
( to me )

(Posted on Friday, October 7, 2011 at 1:30 AM)

12. FoxyMulder said:

I'm also not sure how reliable DVD Beaver caps are.

I took another look, hmmm, yep i think i am willing to go along with your theory on this, some scenes do look bit starved and thats probably why the grain looks dvd quality, since other scenes look similar in both editions. so not a degraining issue but a quality control issue.

(Posted on Friday, October 7, 2011 at 1:43 AM)

13. Marc said:

Care to share with us how you create your Blu-ray screencaps, Michael? I'd like to know how yours are a more accurate representation than the other site you mention. I regularly upload caps myself, so if there is a 'right' way to do it, I want to be sure I am doing it correctly.

(Posted on Friday, October 7, 2011 at 12:09 PM)

14. Author Profile Page Michael said:

Kentai:

Yeah, the TORSO title overlay is just bizarre. To be honest I don't really see the logic in including two separate cuts of the film. I can understand it with DEEP RED, where there are major differences between the two versions, but in the case of TORSO, the export version is only a couple of minutes shorter than its Italian counterpart. I'm not objecting to its inclusion - it just seems slightly superfluous.


Marc:

There are several "right" ways to do it, and to be honest I'm at a loss to explain how it is that the other site I mention is managing to get it wrong. Personally I use a program called DGAVCIndex, but there are plenty of other methods, such as creating an AVISynth script and loading it in VirtualDub (probably more trouble than it's worth given the proliferation of other, less complex methods), or simply loading the movie into any software player that supports 1:1 scaling and using the PrintScreen function (e.g. VLC Media Player or Media Player Classic Home Cinema HD).

(Posted on Friday, October 7, 2011 at 12:21 PM)

15. gasteropod said:

Can you watch the whole Italian cut with Italian audio and English subs on this release? I got the impression that with the DVD's there was only Italian audio in the Italian segments and not the whole film, but I'm unclear. Thanks.

(Posted on Sunday, October 9, 2011 at 6:35 PM)

16. Author Profile Page Michael said:

Gasteropod:

Yes, the options are as follows:

Italian cut with Italian audio and English subtitles
Italian cut with English audio (Italian audio and English subtitles for scenes not dubbed into English)
Export cut with English audio

(Posted on Sunday, October 9, 2011 at 6:43 PM)

17. gasteropod said:

Thanks that's cool, I've just started getting into Sergio Martino's films, I watched 'All the Colors of the Dark' due to you mentioning it and it's really good! 'Your Vice Is a Locked Room and Only I Have the Key' is decent too, can't wait to watch his other gialli.

(Posted on Sunday, October 9, 2011 at 6:51 PM)

18. Anthony said:

Has anyone (knowledgeable) attempted to converse directly with LVR about their concerns? If so, have they shown any willingness to listen and consider them?

(Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2011 at 9:27 AM)

19. Kentai said:

I can see it now...

"Hey, you know that Cintel DSX Telecine device you use for literally everything? Yeah, the one that probably cost you about $100,000? Well it sucks. Go buy a different one."

Word is the digital restoration of ZOMBIE 2: FLESH EATER BOOGOLO is something to behold, and since we know beyond any shadow of a doubt that was LVR I'll be damn curious to see how it turns out. If that looks great, the hardware itself can't be the problem... perhaps it's more the way the CRT scanner is being implemented that's causing problems?

Or, maybe Zombie looks just the same as everything else LVR has done and people are just too damn excited seeing it on the big screen to notice. We'll know in a couple weeks.

(Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2011 at 1:41 AM)

20. Sundance said:

Regarding screenshots...

Don't know about Nvidia's cards since I use ATI nowadays (because they're cheaper... :P ) but at least ATI has several options automatically enabled that will change the way the films looks while played and on screenshots taken. This includes edge-enhancement and de-noising.

I remember reading some claims that these wouldn't affect Blu-Rays but with me they sure do regardless of the program I use to play the disc (well okay I have tried only PowerDVD and Media Player Classic Home Cinema...).

So before taking any screenshots you should make sure all the stuff (edge-enhancement, dynamic contrast, de-noise) are disabled in the catalyst control center.

But, Ati also has at least one hidden de-noise setting (TRDenoise) that is enabled on default and can only be disabled by editing the windows registry (either directly or through some programs (I used dvaxchecker)).
I honestly can't remember if disabling this actually made any difference but I left it disabled anyways. ;)

(Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 at 9:29 AM)

21. Author Profile Page Michael said:

Sundance:

Ah yes, I forgot to mention that. I've used ATI cards exclusively for several years now (since the demise of 3Dfx actually - I never did get round to picking up an nVidia card, though I'm considering doing so for my next purchase) and their automatic video "enhancement" tools are a pain. At least nowadays you can disable most of that stuff in the control panel - it used to be the you had to use registry hacks to get rid of the edge enhancement and noise reduction. I haven't used Windows XP for ages so I've no idea whether it's still the case, but there was a point where ATI's Vista control panel was in much better shape than its XP equivalent, with a whole bunch of video controls only accessible in Vista. If memory serves, the TRDenoise registry entry was needed to disable an additional NR pass that only affected interlaced content.

None of this should matter if you're using DGAVCIndex, but it will definitely be relevant if using a player like VLC or Media Player Classic to take captures.

(Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 at 8:08 PM)

22. Brian said:

Here's an early review of ZOMBIE:

http://www.rockshockpop.com/forums/content.php?1952-Zombie-%282-Disc-Ultimate-Edition-Blu-ray%29


Really getting sick of this.

(Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2011 at 1:16 AM)

23. Brian said:

HOUSE BY THE CEMETERY suffers as well. This one looks like another CITY OF THE LIVING DEAD. Scroll down a bit (past the ZOMBIE review):

Review at Mondo Digital...
http://www.mondo-digital.com/zombie.html

(Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2011 at 3:00 AM)

24. Christopher D. Jacobson said:

Damn. More of the same.

(Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2011 at 6:10 AM)

25. FoxyMulder said:

It looks like it had the same issue as other Italian sourced transfers and Blue Underground have used noise reduction on it to try and deal with the problem but that just results in adding additional issues, i don't like the look of those screencaps at all.

Hopefully someone here will buy it and tell us more.

(Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2011 at 1:52 PM)

26. Kentai said:

I'm waiting for pre-ordered copies of both to arrive, but RSP's review/screenshots tell me damn near all I need to know...

(Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2011 at 9:33 PM)

27. Christopher D. Jacobson said:

Is it actual noise reduction and fake grain being thrown on top, or is it just that LVR's equipment has a way of scanning the film that throws the grain on the forefront, somehow prioritizing its importance and detail over the rest of the image? I don't suppose any of us really knows for sure, but I'm curious if it may be the latter over the former.

Of course, that wouldn't explain how soft and waxy The Living Dead at Manchester Morgue looks.

(Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2011 at 11:17 PM)

28. Kentai said:

It's a little of both, I think. I have little doubt that titles like Django, The New York Ripper and The Bird With The Crystal Plumage represent what an untouched film scan looks like on that Cintel DSX HD Telecine. They're noisy as all hell, certainly, but there's very little in the way of temporal smoothing going on, and any underlying fuzziness is likely just the scanner's inability to focus properly in the first place. Maybe the actual "focus" of the flying spot scanner is something that can be manually adjusted, or varies with the quality of the tubes themselves? That could explain why titles like The New York Ripper is startlingly sharp (noisy or not), and yet crap like Zombie Holocaust is so damned fuzzy it may as well just be a DVD drowning in High Definition analog static...

Titles like Torso, The Living Dead at Manchester Morgue and now Zombie have been hit with differing types of DVNR, some of which hide all of that harsh video noise better than others. I'll begrudgingly admit that Zombie's smoother caps look less heinous than the grittier ones, but let's face it, we shouldn't be forced to decide wither DVNR or analog video noise is the lesser of two evils to start with.

(Posted on Monday, October 17, 2011 at 2:06 AM)

29. Brian said:

Kentai: Have you contacted Blue Underground or LVR about this problem? I don't know if anything will change if we just grumble about it amongst ourselves. I know I would contact them, IF I had any technical knowledge on the matter. I know something's clearly wrong, but I don't understand for sure what is causing it. Someone with technical knowledge should try to get in contact with some people. I don't understand how Lustig (a filmmaker) can have his label put out these and not do anything about it. Especially if he's a fan of these films.

(Posted on Monday, October 17, 2011 at 3:18 AM)

30. Phil Quail said:

Look at the transfer Bill Lustig released of MANIAC, his own film! It's absolutely diabolical.

It would be good if some sort of "campaign" could be launched regarding these Italian-sourced transfers, even if it ultimately didn't achieve anything. But like Brian, I don't personally understand the technicalities - all I can say is "it doesn't look right".

(Posted on Monday, October 17, 2011 at 5:34 PM)

31. Adam said:

"Have you contacted Blue Underground or LVR about this problem? I don't know if anything will change if we just grumble about it amongst ourselves."

Honestly, I'd expect Blue Underground to be dismissive, if not outright hostile, about any criticism, no matter how justified or carefully worded it may be.

(Posted on Monday, October 17, 2011 at 7:48 PM)

32. Author Profile Page Michael said:

Someone (I think it might have been Kentai, but I could be remembering this wrong) did email Blue Underground when THE STENDHAL SYNDROME was released and its odd look raised some eyebrows, but their response was very much of the "it's an old film so it looks grainy" variety.

(Posted on Monday, October 17, 2011 at 7:50 PM)

33. Kentai said:

Nah, that wasn't me harassing him over The Stendhal Syndrome - I messaged them a few queries over their Deep Red release and got what I felt were less than satisfactory answers, and when I asked for clarification on what/how they were showing their theatrical release of Zombie I didn't hear a thing... probably just busy with the roadshow. Or maybe they hate my guts by now, who knows?

But yeah, I wouldn't expect BU to be overly receptive to criticism, no matter how valid we think it may be. Back when the AV Maniacs reviewer mentioned DVNR on The Living Dead at the Manchester Morgue, Bill Lustig appeared in their forum essentially saying there was no digital tampering to the film, and that should they make wild accusations like this in the future perhaps they don't want to get screeners anymore. (Mind you, that transfer is drowning in waxy, sludgy noise reduction - I don't give a fig what Lustig has to say about it!)

Now I guess "oldschool gangster" tactics keep the screeners flowing and the reviews largely positive enough, but nobody gives me free sh!t to review, so I rarely hesitate to call them as I see them. :)

(Posted on Monday, October 17, 2011 at 8:52 PM)

34. Adam said:

The Manchester Morgue debacle happened to me. The folks at AV Maniacs savaged me pretty hard about it too, coming up with some overly elaborate photographic explanation as to the smeary texture and complete lack of detail. The people here and on your blog are the only ones I've seen who had the same reaction I did. (You're also the ones who opened my eyes to the LVR issue which I was blind to when I reviewed some of these titles. Now it's unmistakable, and I feel embarrassed that I couldn't see it sooner.) I got another harshly worded email when I wrote a very positive review of Synapse's release of Maniac Cop.

I've been buying all of Blue Underground's BD releases but have avoided reviewing any for a while, but I just found out that I've been assigned Zombie. I'm going to be honest, so we'll see how that goes.

(Posted on Monday, October 17, 2011 at 9:10 PM)

35. Adam said:

Actually, re-reading through that AV Maniacs thread, I think my memories of the way that discussion went are very different than the way it actually did. Sorry about that.

I'm not misremembering the way the emails I got directly went, though, since I still have a copy of the Maniac Cop jab, and there's not a lot of room for misinterpreting a threat for a website to stop receiving screeners for writing what was said to be an uninformed, inaccurate review.

(Posted on Monday, October 17, 2011 at 9:27 PM)

36. Christopher D. Jacobson said:

Look at this blog: Michael has managed to draw in all the misfits who are seeing things differently from the rest, from dissatisfied fans (which we all are) to film reviewers and people who actually handle film to video, ha.

I'd emailed BU about the odd grain in Stendhal. That response I got was very sterile.

When I saw these Zombie caps, I admit I sent BU a fairly nasty email. Not yelling at them or anything, but I did use a few choice words in saying that they need to slap the shit out of LVR or find a different authoring house, threw in something about them destroying these films instead of preserving them properly, and some jab at the end about there being several of us who don't buy the bullshit that these are how these films look (which I said in those words, and was mostly an incredibly delayed knee-jerk reaction to the reply they gave me regarding Stendhal years ago). I'm sure they haven't/won't take too kindly to that; I haven't gotten a reply yet. Probably wasn't a wise thing to do, but damn, I got pissed seeing those caps and didn't take the time to calm down before emailing.

(Posted on Monday, October 17, 2011 at 10:33 PM)

37. Brian said:

Other ideas - bad press. Expose this issue on Amazon.com through reviews. Make reviewers of these titles at high traffic review sites (HighDefDigest, DVDBeaver, Blu-ray.com, etc) aware of this problem and ram it down their throats. One positive review after another from the big sites just confirms to Blue Underground that their releases are fine, when they are not. Now, Blue Underground is pretty solid when it comes to keeping good bitrates and including the original soundtrack mix (well, after the initial batch), but what good is a high bitrate encode if you're encoding trash?

(Posted on Monday, October 17, 2011 at 11:25 PM)

38. Christopher D. Jacobson said:

What bothers me is even some sites with a highly-regarded cult film reputation like 10,000 Bullets give these discs good reviews. I don't mean to trash 10K and Michael Den Boer in any way—it's a site I visit frequently and it helps me in deciding whether to buy titles that others haven't covered—but there's usually nothing but praise for these transfers with no mention of anything being awry.

I may do a few Amazon reviews. I usually only like to give good criticism, but this is an issue that's really become a major problem. Despite the upgrade over DVD, I'm thinking of passing on these titles from now on, not giving BU my money for these subpar releases.

(Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 1:15 AM)

39. Phil Quail said:

Continuing on this theme, DVDBeaver have a review of Blue Underground's HOUSE BY THE CEMETERY up now. More of the same?

(Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 1:18 AM)

40. Christopher D. Jacobson said:

Rock! Shock! Pop! did a review of House by the Cemetery on the same day they covered Zombie, and it's definitely hit with the same affliction.

http://www.rockshockpop.com/forums/content.php?1953-House-By-The-Cemetery

(Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 1:44 AM)

41. Kentai said:

...wait a second, Synapse gave you a ration of shite on your MANIAC COP BD review?

The one where you rave about the picture quality being pristine and give the title a "Recommended" at the end (and in the summary, too!)? The one where your only major gripe you can even come up with is that the related Bruce Campbell commentary - which is a damn substantial feature to be missing, at that - has gone MIA? THAT review?!

Damn, Don May must be playing hardball...

(Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 2:23 AM)

42. Christopher D. Jacobson said:

That's pretty bogue to write a positive review and be threatened to no longer receive any screeners. What.the.hell.

I just submitted my Amazon review for "Zombie"; dunno if it's live yet. I feel like submitting it before the BD's release and without actually having seen it in person will potentially hurt the credibility, but if a reader can't accept that I have seen many of these other similar-looking transfers that have led me to these conclusions, or that uncompressed screengrabs can paint a very accurate picture of how these discs look, then poo on them—I can't make a person be perceptive.

(Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 2:53 AM)

43. Brian said:

I just gave a 'thumbs up' on Amazon to your review.


Also, I just received a private message from a poster 'Telecine' on Blu-ray.com, in response to questions regarding this issue that I posted months ago on those forums. Apparently there is now an answer in the Zombie thread, though I've yet to read it (will do so after posting this). I can't remember who 'Telecine' is but they might have been part of the restoration team for Zombie at LVR..I don't rememeber!

(Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 3:29 AM)

44. Adam said:

"...wait a second, Synapse gave you a ration of shite on your MANIAC COP BD review?"

Sorry, I didn't word that well...Bill Lustig gave me a hard time about it for not noticing that the color timing was way off and that there are severe imaging issues with the 6.1 remix. He threw out a few barbs about Don while he was at it.

Don cryptically said a short while back that the DVD's audio commentary didn't make its way to the Blu-ray because of issues with one of the creatives or something like that, and...well, I guess now we know who!

(Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 12:06 PM)

45. Christopher D. Jacobson said:

Bill can't even get his own damn film right (Maniac). What a turd.

I'm sure Maniac Cop in the hands of Blue Underground wouldn't have looked as good.

(Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 12:33 PM)

46. FoxyMulder said:

How many positive blu ray reviews of releases which have medium to major issues are out there at the larger and indeed smaller sites because they get free screeners. ?

I would say a lot.

I'd prefer to read honest and unbiased reviews, even if a person isn't totally knowledgable but can at least say they are seeing something amiss.

(Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 3:53 PM)

47. Adam said:

Honestly, I think the problem with most Blu-ray reviewers is ignorance, not trying to keep a steady flow of free stuff coming. Everyone wants to be an expert, and no one wants to acknowledge that they don't know as much as they think they do.

(Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 4:18 PM)

48. FoxyMulder said:

I worked for a review site, i did a review of a film i disliked intensely and wrote it up accordingly, they asked me if i could write a few more positive things, i didn't and promptly quit the site and started my own site, this was in the DVD days and probably around six years ago and this was a screener freebie, the site got many screener discs and reviews all tended to be positive at that site, indeed the reviews still are positive and rosy at that site and oh now we have blu ray and film grain is the enemy over there, there was no blu ray reviews when i was there for obvious reasons.

(Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 10:21 PM)

49. Phil Quail said:

@Adam
"Honestly, I think the problem with most Blu-ray reviewers is ignorance, not trying to keep a steady flow of free stuff coming. Everyone wants to be an expert, and no one wants to acknowledge that they don't know as much as they think they do."

I have to say, I have some sympathy with them - at least the ones who try to give honest reviews (not the idiots who act like "experts" and moan about the presence of a bit of grain!)

I'm not brave enough to be a Blu-ray reviewer. I'd be happy to comment on the films themselves, but very wary of passing judgement on the video and audio quality!

Not being someone who watches the same films (even favourites) over and over again, I frankly wouldn't notice if the colour timing was off, or the image was re-framed, or there were errors in the sound mix. I could also quite conceivably miss some of the DNR/tampering issues we talk about on here, to be perfectly honest.

(Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 10:45 PM)

50. Author Profile Page Michael said:

Adam:

Great to have you commenting here. I've long considered you to be one a handful of reviewers (along with a few others like Geoff Dearth at the Digital Fix) who really know what they're talking about. Most of the time, anyway - I do remember your 5-star review of DJANGO :D ...but I'm hardly one to talk as there's also my slightly perplexed but overall very positive 8/10 review of THE STENDHAL SYNDROME.

To be honest I'm not surprised by your tales of gangster-like behaviour, threatening to withhold review copies and so on. I get the impression that the smaller labels rightly or wrongly feel that the reviews can make or break a release and are desperate to do whatever they possibly can to ensure good publicity. The larger labels presumably feel they can shrug off negative reviews - look at the way Universal keeps churning out swill AND sending out sample discs - but there are only so many reviewers that are going to cover a title like TORSO or ZOMBIE, so negative coverage from even one site is probably a major issue to them. Not that that justifies making threats, but it probably goes some way towards explaining why they often seem so protective of their output.


Phil:

Not noticing a bit of missing footage or a mixing or grading error are the sorts of things that keep me awake at night too. I've overlooked plenty and I think the only thing a reviewer can really do in that situation is to issue a correction as quickly as possible.

I also have some sympathy for people who just want to write about films suddenly being expected to be tech experts, but I always feel that if you don't understand of something then it's better not to make out you're an expect on it, as certain reviewers I'm not going to name repeatedly do. I've always felt that the best anyone can do is listen to the people who DO know what they're talking about (guys like Torsten Kaiser, for example) and avoid making the same mistakes after they've been pointed out.


General points:

I think it's great that people are slowly but surely waking up to the realisation that something is seriously wrong with these Italian releases (I've noticed the issue gaining some traction on the AVS Forum too). For a long time it did feel like I was lone voice of dissent and consequently the one who inevitably got it in the neck from the usual suspects (though I hasten to point out that Kentai deserves a massive amount of credit for persevering with this issue and continuing to report on his blog, in great detail, on dodgy discs). Multiple people pointing out the same problems means that, on a personal level, it lightens the load a bit, but also makes it more likely that something will be done. Suddenly I don't feel quite so much like a lone crackpot! :D

(Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 11:05 PM)

51. Kentai said:

Ah! Well, that does make much more sense. Sorry I wasn't quite following, Adam. :)

Whilst BU deserves any and all shite they get for MANIAC, I'll point out that the transfer for Lustig's VIGILANTE looks pretty good. I don't have a clue why the black levels are completely borked on the former, but I wonder if the materials were color corrected to IRE 7.5, just like the recent BLOOD FEAST TRILOGY... that's only part of the problem, mind you, but it's at least a big'un.

(Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 at 11:31 PM)

52. Kentai said:

Phil: It can be a pretty thankless task, ripping a disc a new play-hole. Nobody on the staff behind it wants a release to be a pile of crap, but sometimes it happens anyway. Sometimes they're trying and just don't know the film well enough to know better, and sometimes they clearly just don't give an 'eff. THE BEYOND is an example of the former... UROTSUKIDOJI the latter.

Even when your complaints are totally valid, people will defend the release because they didn't notice anything amiss. And that's fine, really... I don't want people to stop enjoying the stuff that they buy, I just want them to acknowledge that what we have sometimes isn't all it could be. You can even wind up with hostility, which confuses me. If everyone defending BEYOND THE DARKNESS was happy with the Media Blasters BD, would they complain if their next release didn't have a host of weird issues? And if they're happy with the product, why the hell do they care what I have to say? Reviews are mostly there to help people decide if they do or don't want to buy a product - if I'm calling a release crap after they've watched it, what do they care? They can form their own opinion.

And what's worse is you can still be completely wrong, even when you sorta know what you're talking about. I've pointed to discs (based on screenshots only) I thought were upscales, and was later proven wrong when I got my hands on them. And you know what? If I saw caps that looked just as bad as Bad Lieutenant or Versus or Battle Royale, I'd probably say it all over again. (Besides, I was totally right about Ichi the Killer, Scanners, Diebuster: The Movie, and The Hills Have Eyes, so... :P)

P.S. - "Telecine" says that LVR had nothing to do with THE BEYOND or BURIAL GROUND. So we have two film labs in Rome using crumby CRT equipment? Yikes!

Let's hope s/he has something more to say on this matter...

(Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 12:01 AM)

53. Brian said:

OK, I looked and the responses from Telecine are possibly to a PM I sent to him on June 3rd. I sent this message:

"Hi, if you are affiliated with those who worked on titles like City of the Living Dead, Cat O' Nine Tails, Django, and a few others, can you please read some of the complaints and let us know what is really going on, why detail is sometimes poor and grain looks artificial and noisy. We are not asking for noise reduction or digital manipulation, just trying to figure out why multiple titles seem to have a 'signature' for their look, being one that results in the previously mentioned complaints. Some have speculated that the scanning equipment or some settings are possibly the issue.

http://www.landofwhimsy.com/archives...-o-nine-tails/
http://www.landofwhimsy.com/archives...ray-and-grain/
http://www.avmaniacs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36259

Thanks for reading. "

Here was the response yesterday:

"I saw now i had a message!
Anyway answer is under zombi discussion. "


Hopefully there will be continued discussion on the matter and not a long waiting period.

(Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 1:19 AM)

54. Adam said:

"Most of the time, anyway - I do remember your 5-star review of DJANGO :D"

Well, nobody's perfect. :) That and Stendhal are obvious mistakes I've made, and I'm sure I've made others that'd make me cringe if I were to give them another look now. I know I'd be a lot harder now on Anchor Bay's Romero titles, which I was lukewarm about but gave more of a pass than I should've because I was comparing them to the DVDs...not reviewing them on their own merits.

At the end of the day, I'm still a hobbyist, and I recognize that there are plenty of people out there who are much more knowledgeable and much more informed than I am. Really, all reviewers need to do is find those people and try to learn from them. I had no business writing DVD reviews when I first started, but I kept an eye out for gearheads who would post examples of problematic DVDs and explain specifically what was wrong with 'em. I learned enough from them that eventually I (mostly) knew what I was talking about too. I think too many reviewers out there are overeager to mint themselves as experts and either dismiss criticism or rabidly defend themselves. It's kind of like the way so many people you run into on the street speak with absolute authority that any movie made before 1999 (pick whatever year you want) can't possibly benefit from Blu-ray. They've just decided it's true, and you see that with a lot of Blu-ray reviews too. "Oh, well, it's a low-budget horror movie from 1984...of course it's going to look terrible." No. Expose yourself to a wide variety of movies. Read what other people are saying. Don't assume you're the most knowledgeable person on the planet.
It's really not that hard.

With Stendhal and Django, my eyes focused on the noise, and because it was so crisp and distinct, I misinterpreted that as meaning *everything* was crisp and distinct. I knew that it didn't look like any grain I'd seen on any other Blu-ray disc, but my inner fanboy convinced me that it's just because Blue Underground was doing a better job reproducing it than every other studio out there. Clearly I was mistaken. :P I will also say that you and Kentai opened my eyes. (I'm more of a lurker, but I've been reading both of your blogs for quite a while now.) I trust what the two of you say more than anyone else out there. If 30 reviewers have one reaction to a disc and either of you have another, I immediately assume that you're right and everyone else is wrong...even if I'm one of those 30. A majority opinion is frequently meaningless. Look at all the early reviews of the HD DVD of The Perfect Storm, for instance, where everyone was so quick to label it reference quality when it's one of the most flawed transfers on the format.

I don't know why I wrote a rant that long, but the short version goes something like this: I really appreciate the vote of confidence, especially because I consider you (and Kentai) to be the most trustworthy voices I've found, period, when it comes to Blu-ray. I'd also say that being a regular reader has made me a better reviewer too.

(Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 2:18 AM)

55. Vincent Pereira said:

Of course, there's the other side of the coin, too- Synapse Films releases a completely unmolested transfer like THE EXTERMINATOR and Blu-ray.com gives it a terrible review. Adam: I remember I participated in that AVManiacs LIVING DEAD AT THE MANCHESTER MORGUE thread (I no longer post at that site), and I did speculate that the optics used during production might have been the cause of some of the issues folks were seeing on the disc, but I do not recall you being attacked over it? If I ever did so, I absolutely apologize, but I never intended to "rationalize" the look of that (or any other Blu-ray) in order to make myself feel better about my purchase. In my case it's always been about trying to get to the root cause of any issues folks might be seeing before crying "DNR!!! DNR!!!", I'm not about to defend something that looks awful just to make myself feel better.

Vincent

(Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2011 at 6:06 AM)

56. Anthony said:

Another 'Zombie' review.. http://www.dvdactive.com/reviews/dvd/zombie-ultimate-edition.html

(Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2011 at 11:24 AM)

57. Anthony said:

Has anyone done this type of analysis on the way the grain appears in 'The French Connection'?

I tried to skim reviews and threads about it but most seemed to talk about the colour timing changes. That release seems to have the same type of grain look that this thread talks about.

(Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2011 at 3:23 PM)

58. Kentai said:

The heavy grain on THE FRENCH CONNECTION appears to be a side-effect of the ridiculous 'color defocusing' process Friedkin mauled so many of his own films with.

THIS POST does a really good job of explaining why the grain is so overpowering. The short answer is that without the original color information overlaid on top, the grayscale's grain has nothing to "blend" with, and becomes much easier to see.

(Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2011 at 2:50 AM)

59. Vincent Pereira said:

Of topic but, wow, the one guy in that thread you linked is awfully misinformed re: SEVEN. SEVEN did not undergo a DI. It was released in 1995, well before the DI era (the first full 2K DI was OH BROTHER, WHERE ART THOU?). It was also not shot on reversal. What made SEVEN unique was that it was one of the first high-profile films to use a bleach-bypass process in the creation of prints which helped give the film a unique look back in the day (of course said look has now become rather commonplace and even overdone).

Vincent

(Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2011 at 11:49 PM)

60. Profondo said:

I'm amused by all of this, all of you people who seem to know better? put your money were your mouth is!..can we expect a NEW Blu-Ray company set up by all you bedroom restorationists?, If you think these labels are so bad? DO IT YOURSELF!, do you have ANY idea the amount of money that goes into releasing these films? I mean really have an idea?, If so STOP feckin trashing these companies - maybe (just maybe) things will change but you guys putting the boot in will mean NOTHING ZILCH NADA and that's what we will get..they obviously DO NOT have the money to do new transfers (which costs a fortune) these companies are not WB (or Criterion) sales are minimal (for minimal titles) Whimsy put the boot into labels like NoShame (where are they now eh?) if we don't stop complaining we will have NOTHING but shit transfers of shit movies (feck any Euro Cult as that is a niche market!)...let's just have nothing eh?, would that make you all feel oh so important?

*for the record I have the "problem" titles on Blu & to my (non tech) eyes they look good..not great but good, on a 50" full HD LED set (this years new Samsung model) turn down sharpness on your TV (which it should always be at), don't get me wrong titles like North By Northwest, Psycho, Apocalypse Now look stunning, they have though been afforded multi million $$ restoration...would you take that gamble on a cheesy Euro horror flick? (go on try it...)

(Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2011 at 2:36 AM)

61. Brian said:

Just adding that I finished watching HOUSE BY THE CEMETERY, and whatever impression you had of the CITY OF THE LIVING DEAD disc, that's what you'll probably think of this one.

(Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2011 at 6:13 AM)

62. Christopher D. Jacobson said:

Profondo: There is a lot of money thrown into these restorations—which is exactly why they should do it right the first time and stop doing such a shitty job. But for LVR to do things right would mean buying a whole new telecine, which would cost a fortune. They'll just continue using the highly expensive piece of crap they have, which is unfortunate, and proper film preservation will continue to spiral down the toilet. Thank God for Synapse Films, Twilight Times, and Midnight Legacy, eh? (And hopefully Grindhouse Releasing will enter the Blu-ray stage before long—but those guys work at a geriatric snail's pace, so I'm not counting on it.)

I also highly, highly doubt anybody who frequents this site has the sharpness set high on their HDTVs and monitors. Mine's really damn low.

(Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2011 at 8:53 AM)

63. Kentai said:

Profondo: I know that every title is different, but yes, I do have a rough idea how much lab work costs. (The best lab isn't always the most expensive, either.) I also know that most of the titles being released by Media Blasters, Arrow Video and Blue Underground don't have HD masters just sitting around, so somebody - likely, the local licensors - *is* paying for new HD transfers. And that's why it's a tragedy to see brand new transfers like TORSO, ZOMBIE, THE BEYOND, PHENOMENA and BURIAL GROUND turn out so damn badly.

You're saying we shouldn't voice a valid, honest complaint? I don't think so, dude. I've had ZOMBIE pre-ordered for weeks, and watched it as soon as it arrived. You know what? The transfer's mediocre - not the worst I've seen, but not particularly good, even in the scope of Blue Underground releases. Bill Lustig already has my damn money, so what should I do? Shut my mouth because if I don't - gasp! - I might not have the chance to buy EVEN MORE mediocre products in the future? Oh, horror...

Guys like myself think these films deserve to be treated with the same level of respect as any Hollywood feature, and that includes being preserved and presented on Blu-ray without any major flaws. That's the whole POINT of buying a movie on Blu-ray, isn't it? To have the best and most archival-quality presentation out there? If the release is only a minor upgrade over the DVD, why bother? Are we all such consumerist zombies we HAVE to buy every copy of every film ever made? I know I can't afford to do that (try as I might!), and yes, I use reviews to make judgment calls over wither or not a title I already own or am kinda "eh" towards is worth the $15 to upgrade. That's what reviews exist for, isn't it? If we take that label-friendly attitude, why talk about (or buy!) Blu-ray in the first place? If mediocrity is 'good enough' or even what these labels should shoot for, we might as well just keep buying DVDs...


And as for NoShame USA... well, just forget about them. The guys running it "became" Mya Communications after they broke up with their Italian partners in 2008, and continue to release (mostly shoddy) DVDs through specialty retailers. Last I heard, NoShame Italy was trying to track them down because they were using materials they no longer had the rights for. (You never wondered why they don't have a website, or any firm contact info...?) Wither all of this is true I don't honestly know, but I DO know that some of their later releases were gnarly VHS-looking prints that should never have been released on DVD. Honestly, if those guys disappeared I wouldn't lose any damn sleep over it.

(Mind you if I'm getting bad intel, or there's some back-end misunderstanding and I'm mistaken on wither Mya is a legit organization or not... well, they still kind of suck, so, whatever.)

(Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2011 at 10:24 AM)

 
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